Applying to NE.

Aran_Thule · Post by **Aran_Thule** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:21 pm

Lenah wrote:I demand the reason _Why_ its inapropriate for Mirage to join the alliance it has been 2 years without any, I repeat ANY problems.

Demand???

Mirage was inactive, when was the last time you attended a GM meeting as Mirage GM?
tbh i cant remember, several meetings have been prearranged with the information on the open section of the forums.
The fact remains that you were in Chosen and Mirage was effectively just the home for several of your alts.
As i mentioned several guilds were presented to be removed, and thoose that were removed were done with the approval of all at the meeting.

You then posted me asking why and i replied with the following.

3 guilds were removed , several were suggested and the matter was talked over and agreed on by thoose representing the guilds.
Another issue is the Chosen -> Mirage move, as we mentioned if chosen want to join the alliance they should apply like every other guild has.
If they moved to Mirage it would really just be Chosen under another name and as such should still apply to join.

Also you have to remember that any application can be stopped by a veto from an alliance member, this is to try to stop possible issues and conflict happening within the alliance.

i hope this explains the situation.

i will repeat, we are treating the application of Mirage as an application from a new guild.
Every other guild that has applied to join has done so in this manner.
Having a guild take anothers name and bypass this stage in joining would not be fair on all thoose guilds that have applied in the past.

Lenah · Post by **Lenah** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 3:31 pm

Not really answering the actualy question, why was veto right used so that re-apply and rejoining was not allowed. From your last lines I get the feeling its still being processed? If this is the case, the overall picture is very, very unclear.

Jupiler · Post by **Jupiler** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:58 pm

If its about keeping me out from NE alliance, you got to be joking to even try.

I am sure your arrogant tone will help solving your problem.

Bourkey · Post by **Bourkey** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 8:00 pm

Jupiler wrote:I am sure your arrogant tone will help solving your problem.

Aye, I dont think arrogence is the way to get into the alliance to be perfectly honest.

Aran_Thule · Post by **Aran_Thule** » Wed Jun 15, 2005 11:01 pm

Lenah wrote:Not really answering the actualy question, why was veto right used

There are two main reasons that an application will be vetoed.

Firstly normally being if it is a very small or newly formed guild, given that space is limited we cant just let everyone join and noone likes to remove guilds once they are inside.

Second is if you think that the guild joining the alliance will cause differculties.

In the case of Chosen there were problems for both reasons.
I dont know how many guilds would have used thier veto as after the first it doesnt really matter, the point is that its happened and we all have to move on.

levelnix · Post by **levelnix** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:09 am

Aran_Thule wrote:There are two main reasons that an application will be vetoed.

Firstly normally being if it is a very small or newly formed guild, given that space is limited we cant just let everyone join and noone likes to remove guilds once they are inside.

Second is if you think that the guild joining the alliance will cause differculties.

In the case of Chosen there were problems for both reasons.
I dont know how many guilds would have used thier veto as after the first it doesnt really matter, the point is that its happened and we all have to move on.

SORRY ARAN YOU REALLY GOT MY RESPECT BUT THE
GM AGREEMENT ON SUNDAY GM MEETING WAS TO KICK MIARGE
BUT IF THEY WANT BACK IN THE ALLY THEY WELCOME AND NOT
TO MAKE A VOTEING OR SOMETHING ELSE ON A NOT ANNOUNCED
GM MEETING AND LET THEM NOT IN AGAIN
AND THATS THE POINT
(want post it again now because i m sick of this shit)

Bourkey · Post by **Bourkey** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:14 am

levelnix wrote:SORRY ARAN YOU REALLY GOT MY RESPECT BUT THE
GM AGREEMENT ON SUNDAY GM MEETING WAS TO KICK MIARGE
BUT IF THEY WANT BACK IN THE ALLY THEY WELCOME AND NOT
TO MAKE A VOTEING OR SOMETHING ELSE ON A NOT ANNOUNCED
GM MEETING AND LET THEM NOT IN AGAIN
AND THATS THE POINT
(want post it again now because i m sick of this shit)

I think the point Aran is trying to make is that essentially Mirage would be Chosen with the chosen members moving over, making it unfair to let them into the alliance without normal rules applying.

levelnix · Post by **levelnix** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:43 am

Bourkey wrote:I think the point Aran is trying to make is that essentially Mirage would be Chosen with the chosen members moving over, making it unfair to let them into the alliance without normal rules applying.

PLAYER ALWAYS MOVING FROM GUILD TO GUILD AND MANY IN
MORE THEN 1 GUILD, 1 ALLY ON DIFFREND SERVERS IN DIFFREND REALMS CAN T SEE THE PROBLEM TBH
IT LOOKS LIKE YOU GUYS REALLY SEARCHING HARD FOR A REASON TO LET
MIRAGE NOT IN AGAIN BREAKING AGREEMENTS FOR THAT AND I REALLY
CAN T UNDERSTAND IT SORRY

Kallima · Post by **Kallima** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:55 am

Aran_Thule wrote:i will repeat, we are treating the application of Mirage as an application from a new guild.
Every other guild that has applied to join has done so in this manner.
Having a guild take anothers name and bypass this stage in joining would not be fair on all thoose guilds that have applied in the past.

Like Aran said...

Belisar · Post by **Belisar** » Thu Jun 16, 2005 7:57 am

It is an interesting issue and clearly not a straightforward one.

If this was Chosen asking to move into the alliance as Chosen then there would be a vote and a veto would be allowed.

As I understand it Chosen cannot move and retain that name as they have no GM's to leave one alliance and accept an invite to another.

The solution for them was to move their toons from the Chosen guild to Mirage - a sensible thing to do given the lack of GM but does this make them Mirage or Chosen under a different name ?

Level is right about people moving guilds but it is the people who make up the guilds - the guild is not just a name.

I remain confused as to who will actually be in the revitalized Mirage guild as there seems to be some promises and last minute changes of mind, but as best as I can work out we have perhaps 2 members (and I am talking players not toons) of old Mirage, 1 from Arrows Sting and any number (this is the bit I am not clear on) from Chosen.

If that number is 5 or 10 then effectively this is not Mirage but Chosen under a different name. Lenah seems to indicate the number is quite large therefore they have been treated as a new guild.

Another example would be if the alliance kicked Marsh Horde out because they caught Wyst fixing a hole we just put in Renaris and they re-formed under the name Harsh Morde - would we let them in as a new guild ? Probably not because they are the same players and we know we have just kicked them for some horrendous crime against hibmanity.

In summary we need to look beyond the guild name (for it is just that) and look at the players who make up the guild. This seems to be Chosen under a different name therefore we treat them the same as any new applicant.

[Apologies to Wyst for making an example of his hole fetish]