Jesus Camp Trailer

[Xest]

If your serious about debating this issue wouldn't it be easier to expose the two sides of the debate properly without making the emotive statements you make?

I think we have, except we met nothing but idiotic statements previously from the other side

I see this debate as a religion versus science thing. Surely it would make more sense to identify logically the threats you see in religion and see if the same statements could not also be made about scientific rationality.

I think it's that science is a necessity, the human race would be long extinct without it so whilst it does produce things that can be used for bad it's generally accepted that it does far more good than bad, pretty much every minute of our lives is invaded by the produce of scientific research in a positive way be it our cars to travel with, the portable music we listen to, the TV we watch, the computers we use or the methods we cook our food with. In contrast to that whilst as had been mentioned religion does offer some positive concepts and defines some positive moral guidelines it also provides and causes a lot of problems, where it differs to science is that it's very arguably needless at least, more so in the developed world than it ever has been before.

It's been stated in the thread a few times already, I don't think anyone here has a problem with people having some kind of faith, the problem is that that faith all too often intrudes on our daily lives, from the preachers coming round pestering us on Sunday afternoons to political decisions to extremists killing people. The world certainly wouldn't be any worse without religion and it's arguable that it'd be far better, is religion the only ill the world? certainly not, after religion it'd be racism or some such that would cause global problems however it is an ill and one that the world can survive without. Of course it's arguable also that we can live without some science but certainly not all, I also agree with this to an extent, there are some things being done scientifically that just shouldn't be done.

Essentially what I'm saying is that religion is one of many things in the world that causes problems, if it was stripped back to the point where it was just people beleiving in god without that influencing political decisions, without that influencing attitudes towards others then great, but as it stands it's far too imposing, from the people who aren't allowed cures to some illnesses because religious pressure deems these treatments as wrong, through to decisions to go to war which often have a lot of religious pressure behind them.

Does this make sense? That I'm not attacking religion as a whole, likewise I'm not defending science as a whole, but I personally think that religion for the most part simply causes more hassle than is needed whereas science doesn't. When taking that into account it seems illogical to me, and I beleive others also that anyone would be religious, this thread has therefore asked people like Gandelf to try and demonstrate what it is about religion that does make it beleivable and hence worthwhile, yet he's done nothing but avoid the question and make idiotic statements. I don't know if you can offer a clearer perspective here Sharkith as you say yourself you didn't follow that path but I hope this sums up what I (and I think others) are getting at.

[Genedril]

I have - I wasn't fed anything about any beleif other than that that was forced upon me in school, my parents didn't hand me the bible and say read this, they didn't make me go to church or anything like that, they encouraged me to learn about what I wanted to learn about and make decisions on things after looking at both sides of the story, not by trying to influence my thought patterns with one idea or the other.

That's not 'without bias' that's just not being given any information whatsoever. If they brought you up without bias they'd have given you information on all the major religions, as many minor ones they could find, explained the pro's of being an atheist & then given you the opportunity to make your own decision. Instead they didn't give you any insight into any of them (according to you) & just neglected that area of your childhood.

I'm not saying that it's a bad thing]

As for the rest of the discussion - all people have the right to whatever belief they feel necessary. That goes from believing to not believing. It's when people try to enforce their beliefs on others where I feel a line is being crossed (from both perspectives). Though as we live in a world where it's apparently ok for you to enforce your beliefs on others (be they political, religious, social) & declare it in the others best interests then I suppose it's nothing new.

While its fun to pit science against religion neither side will ever win as the basis of each is fundamentally opposed to each other. ‘I believe therefore it is so’ & ‘prove this theory’ will never agree. The people at both extremes will then end up at loggerheads & each will feel that the other is just not listening to their view point. Sitting somewhat in the middle as I do, I can safely say that both sides are basically saying ‘prove to me on my terms that what you say is true’ – with both sides doomed to fail at that exercise.

N.B. Yes, my parents are willy washy liberals & they have left me this bias hence me fence sitting, although I can safely say that I’m far more left-wing politically then either of them they have left me biased (that’s what upbringings do – your parents can only pass on what they think & feel are right as it would be nonsensical for them to pass on things they feel are wrong).

[Lieva]

[quote="Selenia"]I do applaud Sharkith and Gandelf for standing up for their faith, especially in the face of so much adversity that seems to have been present, particularly in this thread. Faith is a very personal thing that is different and individual to all of us and although I'm personally an atheist I do stand up for their right to believe in a deity.

Sometimes it is all to easy to believe in nothing than to believe in something. As I stated before, not many people though die Atheists ]

FSM?

youve abandond his noodley ways

[Kallima]

I suppose the main reason I do not believe that the world would be a more happy and peaceful place without religion is because my parents were atheists who were extremely more anti religion than Xest or even Mojo. They were also fervent racists, and as the mildest mannered person I have ever met once commented, they were rather more right wing than Hitler. Certainly an incredibly small percentage of the human race would have survived if they had a choice of who to eliminate.

On the whole I think it is less destructive to teach your children a religion that in theory at least tells people to love their neighbour, than what my parents attempted to teach me which was blanket hatred.

[Xest]

That's not 'without bias' that's just not being given any information whatsoever. If they brought you up without bias they'd have given you information on all the major religions, as many minor ones they could find, explained the pro's of being an atheist & then given you the opportunity to make your own decision. Instead they didn't give you any insight into any of them (according to you) & just neglected that area of your childhood.

I'd there's always going to be some religions left out though and some with more info available than others and so forth, although I guess in many ways you're right in that it wasn't a totally unbiased childhood anyway as school always made us sing Christian hymns and taught us rather christian ways too, however Religious Education/Studies (whichever you're used to calling it) did teach me about other religions, my parents just didn't see religion as much of a priority at home compared to a decent understanding of maths, English and so forth.

As for my parents they're pretty neutral, my mum was brought up with a religious background and my older sister was christened but they left it upto me to decide if I wanted to be, my dad has always worked managing departments such as race equality, education physcology, special needs and so on, him and his team won an award for race equality last year presented my Mr Blair and in the past he's had a fair amount of dealings with some other higher goverment bods (muppets like David Blunkett and Ruth Kelly) however even with that kind of background he's not ever pressured me into any kind of beleif in particular and I guess it's because he beleives that I'm also entitled to my own opinion. He's certainly a lot more tolerant than I am such that I'd say he hasn't really had that much influence on me at all.

[Sharkith]

I think Kallima, Genedril and Xest for me you guys have stated what I feel with respect to a lot of things. Especially in relation to parents and the sheer problems of deciding about religion and stuff. I kind of prefer Xest's parents solution to my own but I also know where I come from and it is not as bad as these trailers make it out to be - and thats my problem with this discussion. Irrespective of what others have said. Baby Jesus ain't that bad. Others in this thread make him out to be like the devil but tbh he ain't so bad...

Don't get me wrong I am not religious. I have no faith but I do know how to express faith without getting into debates about science. This is the fundamental flaw of the whole discussion so far. If you want a meaningful discussion without insults then lets have one but we need to do it on the right soil. I think thats my first point.

My next point is reserved to Xests statement about science - but I am too drunk to care right now. Thankfully this has calmed down a bit and I can give a bit more of this position when am sober enough in the morning.

Apologies for being on a short fuse earlier...

[Gandelf]

OK, here goes… in for a Penny in for a Pound! I promised much earlier in this thread that I would try to explain (in simple terms) why I became a Christian, how it happened and what it means. If you don’t wish to hear this, then please ignore this post altogether—that is if you think religion is a load of superstitious nonsense. If you decide to read it anyway, then please feel free to comment in whatever way you want, offensively or otherwise—BUT don’t expect a response from me. If I don’t respond it’s not necessarily because I’m unable to do so, but because I think everything that anyone could possibly say as already been said many times over in this thread already and so there’s no need to repeat it all over again. All of what I’ll say is based on Christian teaching and most (if not all) of that comes from the Bible. Whether you accept the Bible as being accurate and reliable is irrelevant because this is MY STORY and as I take the Bible as being the infallible word of God, them I’m happy believing that. Feel free to question anything I believe, but again don’t expect me to respond. I’ve made my mind up and my experience of Christianity only grows stronger with each day and my faith will never be shaken. So, after that fairly lengthy introduction, let’s get started:-
EARLY DAYS
Yes, I went to Sunday School during my early childhood, but neither of my parents were Christians (although they are now, as well as my brother and my wife). I wasn’t made to go to Sunday School, it was my own choice. I enjoyed it.
When I was 10 I joined a local youth group (The Boys’ Brigade) at a local Methodist Church. Again this was my own choice; I wasn’t forced to join it. In fact, my parents did not know that I’d joined on that evening and they were concerned that I was late getting home. I remember saying to them that they would be proud of me when they saw me in my uniform. They accepted my decision without any hostility whatsoever. Over the years, I rose through the ranks and was a very active member of the Boys’ Brigade. On Tuesday evenings we did various activities, including Judo, Cricket, and Football etc. Friday night was Parade Night, which included uniform inspection, parade drill, playing in a military-style band and so on. Sunday morning was Bible Class and this is where I heard most of the teachings from the Bible about Jesus.
It wasn’t until I was 16 that I became a born-again Christian. I remember the moment vividly. It was when I was at a Battalion camp in Cornwall. Sitting alone in my tent and thinking about what various people had said and about my own life I suddenly had an overwhelming experience of joy and happiness that seemed to spread from heart. At that moment I suddenly realised that Jesus was real, that he was my Lord and that every single bad thing I’d ever said or done had been forgiven. I knew (don’t ask me for scientific explanation why) that His death on the cross paid the price in full for my sins. I also noticed that the passages of scripture from the Bible became clearer to me and that somehow God had given me an insight into his Word. No-one forced me into becoming a Christian, it was my own choice. Not even God forced me. It was my decision.
WHAT I BELIEVE
Creation:- I believe that God is omnipotent. As such, it is entirely possible that heaven and earth were created in 6 literal days. But, having studied this at Bible college, I’m also aware that the Bible doesn’t necessarily mean 6 literal days. There is a lot of idiom, metaphor and figurative speech in the Bible, especially in the Old Testament. Those who wrote it were quite possibly writing it just to give the order in which things were created, so as to make it more easily understandable, e.g. people can understand the concept of one day more easily than a million years.
Original sin:- This came into the world in the Garden of Eden, as a result of the first man and woman disobeying God’s warning about eating the forbidden fruit. Again, the forbidden fruit may possibly have been a metaphor for something else or some concept. Everything that is bad about mankind is a direct result of that first sin (which literally means “to miss the mark”). Because we are all descendants of the first man and woman, we are all under the same curse of original sin. Because God cannot tolerate sin, even the smallest of sins is abhorrent to Him. In fact, there are no big or little sins in the eyes of God; they are equally bad, from something as trivial as making illegal copies of CDs to murder. It’s not man’s categorisation of varying degrees of wrongdoing that is important because man is under the curse of original sin and therefore his own concepts are flawed. It’s God’s concept of sin that is really important and as such, all sins are equally severe in the eyes of God.

continued on next post...

[Gandelf]

...continued from previous post

Jesus:- Throughout the Old Testament we read stories of how God’s people would turn their backs on Him and continue to live sinfully. The giving of the 10 commandments really showed how impossible it was for man to live a sin free life. This is why God decided to send His Son. “God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that all who believe in Him may not die but have eternal life.” That’s the famous verse from John chapter 3, verse 16. Everyone has sinned. Everyone can think of something they’ve either said or done that they feel ashamed of and which they know was wrong. That’s why God allowed Jesus to die on the cross. Jesus was without sin. He was 100% man and 100% God all in one (that’s known theologically as the “hypostatic union”, for those who are interested). Jesus did have the opportunity in the Garden of Gethsemane to abandon God’s plan, but he didn’t. He asked that if it were possible that the “cup of suffering” be taken away from him, but that “not my will, but Thy will be done.” He knew he had to be sacrificed for us all and just before he died in great pain on the cross he cried, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” It was at this point that all the sins of the world were placed on Jesus’ shoulders. His death meant that every sin that has been committed, or will be committed was paid for. It means that anyone can be forgiven their sins. All we have to do is accept it. It’s not difficult. Until we do accept it we remain under the curse of original sin and at death will be cut off from God completely. Whether you wish to call that “hell” is up to you. All I do know is that it’s final.
The Holy Spirit:- When a sinner (and I’m a sinner too) gives his/her life to God, repents and acknowledges the death of Jesus on the cross for his/her sins, God will bestow his Holy Spirit upon him/her. This is an unmistakable experience known as being “born-again”. It’s the experience I had when I was 16 when I became a born-again Christian. When you become a Christian, you don’t suddenly stop sinning, but you do become more aware of when you sin. Christians aren’t perfect—I know I’m not. But, being born-again, the work of the Holy-Spirit helps the believer to resist temptation, i.e. the temptations that lead to sin. Of course, we fail and will continue to do so throughout life, but all those failings are already accounted for through Jesus’ death on the cross. The challenge of being a Christian is to try and live a sin-free life. It’s not easy, but with the Holy Spirit’s help (and the help of other believers) it becomes possible.
If anything of what I’ve said about becoming a born again Christian makes sense, then I would be happy to talk with you. Just send me a pm. If on the other hand it all seems to be a load of nonsense, that’s cool. Maybe one day it won’t and you’ll remember this post.
I’m sorry if this has been a rather lengthy post, but I felt I had to give some sort of explanation for my beliefs in view of all that has been said in this thread.
This is my story and this is what I believe.

[Xest]

I'm glad you're deciding to rejoin the thread and sensibly this time Gandelf, and I'm not attacking you in saying this but are you now willing to answer some of the earlier questions? such as Crom's questions on what it is about evolution that makes you disbeleive it? Again I'm not trying to attack you here but I am truly intrigued as to how this sort of thing fits into your beleifs because there are some parts of evolution that truly are 100% proven that also seem to contradict some of the things you've brought up.

Essentially, I'm asking, how do you deal with and explain something that contradicts what you beleive when you can see the evidence of the contradiction first hand if you choose to do so or do you simply not even consider it?

[Sharkith]

Does this make sense? That I'm not attacking religion as a whole, likewise I'm not defending science as a whole, but I personally think that religion for the most part simply causes more hassle than is needed whereas science doesn't. When taking that into account it seems illogical to me, and I beleive others also that anyone would be religious, this thread has therefore asked people like Gandelf to try and demonstrate what it is about religion that does make it beleivable and hence worthwhile, yet he's done nothing but avoid the question and make idiotic statements. I don't know if you can offer a clearer perspective here Sharkith as you say yourself you didn't follow that path but I hope this sums up what I (and I think others) are getting at.

I will be honest Xest that I like most of what you say in almost all threads where I get aggressive is when you jump the gun and try to draw conclusions that forces opinions onto people. I think that style of debate is very damaging. Anyway at least this is working much better now. I avoid commenting on Gandelf because I know that his faith is his own thing and who am I to question it? He has given you the best answer he can its his testimony it seems odd to argue that something that is based on faith and personal experience should be justified on the grounds of evidence and science.

What you and others are doing is generating an inequality in the debate that is hurtful because he cannot answer you on your terms. In many ways the discussion is hopeless.

Now on religion and science.

Religion in the wrong hands kills - I think we can all agree on this?

Religion in the wrong hands is intrusive (with respect to people forcing it on you)

For me both of those statements can also hold true for science.

Science in the wrong hands kills day and daily and in some respects it might have even killed more than religion. Not only this but science can also collude with those who use religion for the wrong reasons as we are all only too aware. What is it - around 700 thousand Iraqi's have now died - science helped kill them.

Is science intrusive? In fact it is. Science has advanced so far so that it is even inscribed on our bodys. In many ways the intrusion of science has gone so far that some people feel we are living in the time of cyborgs. How many of you have fillings? Are you sure the mercury in your body is safe? How can you be sure?

Lets give you one example in 1963 science helped to produce silicon breast implants those implants were given over a period of 20 years to 100,000 women who suddenly 'needed' the product of science. They were told that the substance silicon was inert and therefore safe. The company that produced them hid some results that showed silicon could migrate into tissue and cause fibrous growths.

The result - science in the wrong hands and of the 100,000 women 50,000 had problems. There were suicides and lawsuits that eventually were successful. In the end the company had to file for bankrupcy after settling a class action suit for $4.233 billion.

Like I said science is also intrusive and science destroys lives - especially in the wrong hands. Worse still science inscribes itself on our bodies in ways you and I cannot control. You can say no to religion however....